Men of Dale

abcdefg · **Joined:** Mon May 28, 2012 3:52 pm **Posts:** 273

Personally I didn't much like Weta's Dale men designs. I always thought of them as a plainer, less foreign looking army. Also with the GW figures costing so much, a GW Dale army is not an option for me. With this in mind I have two questions:

1) What are, or were before the film, your ideas on the theme/era/style of Dale and its army. There is very little I can find in terms of illustration or detail in Tolkien's literature. Obviously the lake may well have some bearing on the city and its warriors and it is written that wine was their speciality. I also assume, as portrayed in the films, Dale was very much a fishing community.

2) My thoughts for representing Dale in 28mm are these. Cavalry based on the simplest form of Perry Miniatures' Men-at-arms (i.e. no horse armour) : https://www.perry-miniatures.com/produc ... ts_id=2713
I found someone who has used them very effectively to represent Arnor. I would do something similar: http://jaows.blogspot.co.uk/2012/09/arn ... signs.html
In terms of infantry I'm thinking these, with minimal armour and conversions to cover the trousers (think Gondor plate dress things). https://www.perry-miniatures.com/produc ... ts_id=2471

Anyway, I'd be interested to hear your thoughts.

JamesR · **Posted:** Tue Jun 10, 2014 9:12 pm

I always thought of them as similar to Rohan save a bit lighter armored with more in the way of furs as opposed to the cloaks worn in the south

Erurainon the Trombonist · **Posted:** Tue Jun 10, 2014 9:27 pm

I was looking through the Gripping Beast website one day, and came across the Late Romans: http://www.grippingbeast.com/shop.php?CatID=22
I thought they would work quite nicely as Dale.
They even have a wind lance!! http://www.grippingbeast.com/product.php?ItemID=270
Arthur would make a nice Girion: http://www.grippingbeast.com/product.php?ItemID=784

Wan Shi Tong · **Posted:** Tue Jun 10, 2014 9:32 pm

There on some nice drawings on deviant art you should take a look at. I'm sorry I don't have a link but if you search something like men of Dale and have a look round. As to using war of roses stuff its a bit to well advanced. I'd say go with Gripping beast eastern Europeans, Russians, Arthurian or Germans as that all has a more northern them to it.

Wise Old Elf · **Posted:** Tue Jun 10, 2014 10:32 pm

Hmmm... Out of interest how detailed is are Perry-miniatures? I was admiring a friend's Bretonnian army a few months back but couldn't justify funding my own GW version, and never found anything to equal them so gave up on the idea. But now, looking at these War of the Roses miniatures, that flame has been rekindled! If they're good sculpts I might consider buying them, but because I only paint I'm looking for very good detail so would these be ok or are GW's real Bretonnians better? Also, sorry this is off-track with your forum post abcdefg, but seeing as it applies to posts here in I'd appreciate any advice.

Hodush · **Posted:** Wed Jun 11, 2014 12:54 am

Wise Old Elf, they are the same guys who made most of the LOTR range for GW, so good sculpts (even though I have none).

abcdefg, are you confusing the two places? Dale and Esgaroth are a time apart and would be quite different. Originally, I also did not like the design for the Dale & Lake Town, probably because I saw the low detail models from GW before I saw the film version. There is a HUGE amount of detail in weta clothing, and it is quite hard to replicate on the scale we have. GW didn't even attempt to with the Hobbit, which makes the models look very boring. As I looked into the architecture and design of Dale, I have really started to love it because it all fits so well together.

They were near the dwarves so had plenty of metal but didn't experience much conflict so their armour is expected to be mostly for show, though having the dwarves for instructors, which is mentioned by Tolkien, means that a certain amount of practicality is expected. I think weta nailed the design for Dale, which is some chain under warm, furry clothing. The clasps and vambraces are metal which is both practical and showy and fits 100% with having Erebor nearby. The only thing im not 100% on is the helms, but I can't suggest anything better. They make me imagine something from Spain and a bit of Italy, which matches their architecture.

Esgaroth to me was always similar to Rohan. I imagined mostly normal country folk or farmer types where they might have had a weapon and shield here and there (as Tolkien suggests) and a chainmail chest piece. Rohan's mail goes much lower as they are mounted, I imagined it ending at the waist for Esgaroth. As far as helms go, either the Rohan generic helm with leather flaps on the ears or nothing at all was what I imagined, basically a skull cap.

Weta did do enough to change the designs, but I think they should have taken away more armour from Esgaroth and added more fur or tassles instead of the shoulder armour. I hope this has all been helpful.

I don't really like any models that you have picked as they don't really match my above descriptions. The person who converted the stuff to Arnor did a great job, but I would want to cover up more of the armour with cloth - there's too much plate there for a people who wouldn't have used horses that much. The arches are ok though.

abcdefg · **Joined:** Mon May 28, 2012 3:52 pm **Posts:** 273

Thanks for the ideas.

Hodush, even though Dale and Laketown are at different times, do you not think they would be very similar? I just imagined Laketown being poorer, less showy and perhaps more in the way of simple archers rather than the strength of earlier times. And then after the rebuilding of Dale I imagine a rebuilding of the military strength through association with the Dwarves.

Hmmm, I shall think about those miniatures. I like the idea of converting much of the armour to leather. It would make sense with their closeness to the water. Was it the Roman marines that had leather armour so as to prevent the rust problem?

Hodush · **Posted:** Wed Jun 11, 2014 6:36 am

Yeah, I do think of them as similar, but they would be a much poorer version, so in essence they would be quite different. The wealth of the Dwarves would be gone, so they were starting from the ground up. It took the master ages just to get a few bags of gold. Put simply - Dale is metal, stone and quality clothing, Esgaroth is wood, itchy wool and scavenged metal.

Sticky Fingersss · **Joined:** Sat Oct 09, 2010 11:20 am **Posts:** 1776

I've always imagined them the way GW does the Rangers of the North (the one with the helmets)

abcdefg · **Joined:** Mon May 28, 2012 3:52 pm **Posts:** 273

I've been doing some sketches to try and picture how I might convert these int Dalemen (when they're released): https://www.perry-miniatures.com/pages. ... -workbench
I have yet to look at the horsemen, but I thought I'd ask your opinion on my infantry designs.

Wan Shi Tong, thanks for the mention of Deviant art, it helped me a lot. I've been starting with the Agincourt miniatures and then modifying in ways that would hopefully be convertible so as to give a Dale flavour. I have also tried to show a little Dwarvish influence also from Erebor.
I figured the archer would be suitable for Esgaroth also, although the footman perhaps a little too well armed.

Anyway, there are still a few things I'm not too sure about: the spear/bill top, the helmets (they look perhaps a bit too Spanish here), and of course I have yet to think up a colour scheme. So here they are, please let me know your opinion on the above points or any others, or indeed if you think I've got it completely wrong.

Wan Shi Tong · **Posted:** Sat Jun 14, 2014 4:31 pm

Nice work on the concept art, I like the spear better looks more in line with the armor. The Perry bother were working on an English men at arms plastic box that would work well for this sort of thing, though I don't know when it will be released.

abcdefg · **Joined:** Mon May 28, 2012 3:52 pm **Posts:** 273

Hodush, I apologise. I've been doing some more research. You were right. Dale and Esgaroth are indeed different settlements existing at the same time and would therefore have had different militaries (although probably closely allied). I was under the impression all remaining inhabitants of Lake-town went to Dale after the death of the dragon.

In actual case: Dale existed first, ruled by the ancestors up to Girion, and was destroyed when Smaug first arrived. Lake-town was then built and came under rule of the Master. When this was destroyed, Dale was rebuilt, to be ruled by Girion's line once again. However Lake-town was also rebuilt as Esgaroth to be ruled by a new Master, since the previous one had fled.

Hodush · **Posted:** Tue Jun 17, 2014 12:07 am

I have just realised that your guys look radically different because they don't have cloaks, perhaps your next concepts could include those? I think most people would have worn them on guard duty to keep warm while not moving. I think the GW ones are a bit too puffy normally.

I'm not really a fan of poleaxes in generally (i find they usually look a bit stupid), so maybe that is my hesitation, but I'm not really sure that a poleaxe is suitable for Dale/Esgaroth. They would be unlikely to come across enemy cavalry so probably wouldn't have developed them for battle. IMO, they would have used a pole weapon (spear,poleaxe, whatever) on guard duty at the palace or gates but it would be mostly for show and not for practical use. As the poleaxe lacks beauty for me, i'd be more inclined to give them spears.

I do like that spear design, very similar to the wood elves, but I'd like to see a bit more culture in it. My suggestions would be to have the tip however you want it, but the crossbar part to be more practical looking and less artistic and leafy like an elf one. Try drawing 2 small pennants on either side which hang down to see what you think. I'd probably leave the tips of the crossbar either flat or rounded off like they would have gold rims or something which makes them showy for guard duty and showing off to visitors, but practical enough and different to the old "tie the flag to the pole" thing you often see.

Maybe the actual Dale/Esgaroth helm as made by Weta would be suitable as a palace guard outfit or something? Anyway, those are my thoughts, I hope they are helpful.

Oh one last thing, the mail shirt/chest plate - if they are already wearing mail underneath, they probably wouldn't wear it over the top as well. I'd be more inclined to put a tabard over the top with some nice filigree or design on it. It certainly adds something by having it there though, so good job picking up on that

Men of Dale

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